West Point grads are elite and you know it, Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training. I learned something that day. I'm popping into the conversation late, but I completely agree (not that you can argue with the regs). WEST POINT - In an anniversary year recognizing the military response to the September 11 terror attacks, the Army football team has chosen to recognize the soldiers of the U.S. Army Special. Very interesting. In my experience we rarely see a decent new officer come out of West Point and it's really sad. Without these people, "How do you become "ELite"! They're all going to be SEALs. Plus, onsite youll choose from hundreds of competitive or intramural sports to participate in, and youll have the option to join an extracurricular clubor start your own based on your interests. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. No idea if it is being taught now at BNCOC or ANCOC. However, images of U.S. Green Berets on horseback wearing pakols and various combinations of uniforms and shalwar kameez in late 2001 brought the issue back into public view. One might argue that a cadet who is SMP, simultaneous membership program, would be regularly assigned. Shiver me timbers he pooped on the deck. Henry is a squad leader for the USMA Sandhurst Black and Gold Team, the CIC of a student discussion group associated with the Modern War Institute, and a member of the Domestic Affairs Forum. We can feel confident we did our hob helping train a. It would have sent enough juice thru the not yet graduate nor commissioned idiots heart to stop. Comments will be moderated before posting to ensure logical, professional, and courteous application to article content. The following are requirements for candidates applying to USMA at West Point: Since you need to request a nomination from a U.S. They're inchoate officers. Cadets should know that they must earn respect. First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Rrrrr matey, were be that 3rd Lieutenant. Some of the comments left in this thread have really let me down. That sounds like a fun and challenging job. When I was a 2LT, I always took the fact that Vietnam vets 4-10 years older than I was were saluting me as an obligation to do my best to earn that salute. Lees ons privacybeleid en cookiebeleid voor meer informatie over hoe we uw persoonsgegevens gebruiken. No salute. Prior to his service in Special Forces, Sam served as an Infantry Platoon Leader and Infantry Reconnaissance Platoon Leader, including one deployment to Kunar Province, Afghanistan. Medical students are not in this hierarchy at all except they answer to doctors and do only what a doctor tells them to, under that doctors supervision. Upon the successful completion of flight school cadets received their flight wings and were commissioned as second lieutenants and incured an additional four year service commitment. They receive paygrade of ~E-5 however they hold a higher position. If you think a fellow West Point graduate is a great leader, see how she/he behaves after having a soldier vaporized by an RPG in front of him. This information was not covered or taught. (U.S. Army football) ANNAPOLIS, Md. Thread Special Forces. When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting. Something I wish I knew 50 years ago. Military Academy - USMA Special Forces after West Point Art.Perea Feb 26, 2012 1 2 Next A Art.Perea 5-Year Member Joined Nov 21, 2011 Messages 175 Feb 26, 2012 #1 I going to join special forces, hopefully Delta, and I was wondering if West Point can put you on that path immediately after graduation. She began her career as an active duty US Army officer and continues her service as an over-time major in the National Guard. We had a young know it all LT around the COMS tent he starts looking around and I see him messing with the ground strap the future leader of our troops disconnected it. Scotts writing focuses largely on veterans issues, but he is also a big proponent of Constitutional rights and has a deep interest in politics. Don't assume a damn thing, if a young NCO or Soldier tells you he "thinks" the vehicle is ready or has a full tank of fuel, hand him a long stick, send him back to the Motor Pool, have him put the stick into the fuel tank and bring back said stick with fuel on it, that way both of you will now KNOW that the vehicle is fueled. I was an Air Force Aviation Cadet during the late 1950's. Short answer: no, you can't enter immediately. But usually, you're the one doing most of the work. . Youre right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you. They act only under the auspices of their supervising physician. Thus, I suspect a warrant officer's wife is addressed a "wifady" (wife/lady.) All true. The reason "cadets" are even mention in a gentlemans role is due to long ago medieval social customs. You're right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES . The only regularly assigned cadets are in the national guard or reserves as a SMP Cadet. This group helped liberate a huge swath of Syria. From the senior officer perspective we were largely ignored. but after I had earned my keep so to speak he spent a lot of time teaching and mentoring this Dot head and when I was commissioned he took time off from his civilian job to come to the commissioning ceremony to congratulate me. The CFA is a test of strength, agility, speed and endurance. So this cadet would already be embedded with the staff or command team or shadowing the Platoon Leader, and would most likely have some, albeit limited prior service. When contracted you take the officer version of the oath as well. Superior to a mere cunning, lazy enlisted man. However, if you leave USMA before your junior year, you dont have a service commitment. Working as a deputy or person number 2 is always a difficult task. While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. Plain and simple, I want to be the best and I will do anything, inside my own morals, to get there. Coming straight out of a college (any college) prepares you for exactly nothing. And make it quick Lieutenant. And you don't have to do any of that for delta. I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. I was a 13B20-Gunner. The definition is enhanced further by stating Soldiers "present for duty." They clearly outrank privates and are often assigned to leadership roles, but they aren't yet commissioned. It's hilarious when reality trumps the entitlement issues of a newly hatched fetus. Give credit where its due and stop making it about you. Congressman or Senator, its important to contact these officials as early as possible since this process can take time. Its like my father (retired CW3) taught me; " I don't have to respect you but I HAVE TO RESPECT your rank.". The main thing that you need to do is to choose a combat branch, graduate WP, go to your basic course and do great, and go to your first Army unit and be great. I found from many years in the Army - with many years in the Special Operations forces - that if you do your current job great it will open the doors to the next job. Only the pay grade the cadet holds. Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? While the other sources trained and commissioned officers for all USAF career fields, the Aviation Cadet Corps produced only pilots and navigators. indicating superior social status. It is a chain of command situation. A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers. Speed is your friend in a convoy, never drive slower than the rest of the civilian traffic, that way when a bad guy is trying to catch up to your convoy, he sticks out big time and the rear vehicle can easily engage him. Are we really saying an NCO could not do that? His service with the 5 th Special Forces Group (Airborne) has included leading in Iraq, Syria, and other locations in the Middle East. Every. They are top of the line and I always set my goals as high as I can. She hails from Easton, Pennsylvaniabest known as the home of Crayola crayons. One of the biggest reasons to pursue Officership through USMA at West Point is free tuition, including an annual stipend of more than $10,000. Start putting what youve learned to the test with Field Training, Fundamentals of Army Operations, and courses in foreign language, physics, American politics, and more. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. You and everybody else. Except for USNA kids. Unprofessional. 4 I once had a young cadet who was walking with his girlfriend , loudly address me saying , you do not salute Officers ? As SNCOs think of this as an opportunity to shape the Os of the future. -Mentor these young cadets so that they can grow into the Officers that will leverage all the outstanding traits of the NCO Corps. The February 24, 2022 invasion of Ukraine resulted in news reports of fear in the streets of Kyiv as Ukrainian forces engaged in " a frantic hunt for spies and traitors ," as well as saboteurs and teams seeking to kill President Zelensky and 23 other leaders within Ukraine. But having learned this, it made me wonder when this would actually matter in any meaningful way. More than 300 U.S. Military. Wonder if each Military Academy Of other branches has the same rule/regulation authority.??? *Back to the story: At first, I let things go and decided someone had to be tough on these kids, but after a while, I couldn't let it roll on. If you've ever been in a doctor's appointment and a medical student was assigned to your doctor, that's about how cadets in CTLT and SMP function. But only a complete cadidiot would get his or her cadet rank confused with an NCOs authority and influence. Regarding saluting courtesy in the cadet corps. The use of software that blocks ads hinders our ability to serve you the content you came here to enjoy. You have to pass an iq test, fitness test, and selection board. In flight school cadets qualified for flight pay in addition to their regular pay. (1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command. If you want to be an medic, enlist as one. 99.9% waiting, 0.1% trigger pulling. Pilot and navigator cadets went to different flight schools. I agree totally with enlisted not saluting a cadet. You have to be a 1lt promotable to go as an officer. Define "Duty", you know as opposed to "Education/Training". Yes I already googled it. It can be a very valuable and rewarding experience if done right and an unfortunate waste of time for the CDT and unit if its not. This gives cadets going into their final years of pre-commissioning training the opportunity to experience life in an active duty unit. Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. As others have commented, folks should remember that those Cadets that you give a hard time to will in a short time become those officers that are in charge of writing your NCOERs never mind the fact that they also will be your leaders when deployed in a combat zone ( I served in the 1st Cav Div during Desert Shield and Storm), in other words garbage in equals garbage out. The smart ones find a good NCO to mentor them. Requirements for a USAF Aviation Cadet at the time were two years of college and passing scores on a series of IQ and skills tests such as mathematics, logic, and spatial relations. (2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. Cadet you are not a cadet when in you ng or reserve unit. Share mutual respect and work together is the name of the game. He has operational experience and deployments to the Middle East and several countries in Latin America. I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer?" (Tribune News Service) Army West Point football players will honor the special forces soldiers who helped liberate Afghanistan from Al-Qaeda with the. Not only do NCO's get shit on by their LT's but sometimes the LT is getting shit on by his Company Commander. He holds a master of public policy degree from the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs. Life 101. I believe my words only carried weight because I've already been in the Army for 10 years and the Senior cadre knew this (I didn't get in any trouble). that When in Charge, Be in Charge applies. FOOLISH it is for there to be any antagonism between NCOs and cadets, or NCOs and lieutenants. I retired ten years ago as an 11B SNCO with 26 years in service and a star on my CIB. Scott welcomes story ideas and feedback on his articles, and can be reached at, ts summertime, and for many cadets in the Armys ROTC programs and at West Point, that means . You missed it my good first sergeant so I dutifully call your attention to it. Allow them to lead you too! document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The articles and other content which appear on the Modern War Institute website are unofficial expressions of opinion. Always seek the minority view of any situation or story! Be safe out there, use the "recon by fire" method if probing a road and drop to the ground when a frag is near you, the explosion goes up and away. Hey brother. If you asked any of my roommates at West Point, you would quickly find out that this was my full intention. Be between 17 and 22 years old on July 1 of the year admitted, You cannot be pregnant or with any legal obligation to support a child or children, You have to receive a nomination from a U.S. The Army is always evolving but power bitches have always been around, we just don't frag them as we used to. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. Does anyone know why officers can't be snipers? Even after more than twenty years in uniform, it still surprises me what I dont know about my own profession, and what I still have to learn from my NCOs. I'm an Eagle Scout and attended West Point as a recruited collegiate athlete. A wise cadet will be mindful of their position. In other words, each the SNCO and the cadet would be functioning appropriately. The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner. This article reminded me of something that raised a question for me after I received my commission and that had to do with LTs saluting each other. Campus is 45 minutes from New York City. Answer (1 of 2): Infantry officers that are West Point grads and have Airborne and Ranger school completed usually all get selected after completing SFAS. I chose Engineer with the full intent of going to Special Forces at some later point. AR 600-20 lists command structure. During cadet training we were paid at the rate of an E5. The views expressed are those of the authors, and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. entitled to the salute.". That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. We are officers in training and when we get a chanve at a leadership role with the guidance of the NCOs it will ensure our success as officers. What I'm saying is - IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN -, if you want to get into "action" (which I am assuming is what you want) as an Officer, PERHAPS the Green Berets might fit your desires better. www.Spartan.com/091According to Col. Liam Collins, Phd., Special Forces Qualified Officer, West Point Professor,and past winner of the Best Ranger Competitio. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience. It is the oldest of the five American service academies and . Very nice endorsements. Warrant Officers are formally addressed as "Mister." Pursue a bachelors degree and earn your commission as an Officer by attending the countrys most prestigious military service college. As it turns out, West Point cadets *do* outrank Army noncommissioned officers (NCOs). You have to chose some other branch. They'd go nuts. "b. They don't even have a MOS/Branch assignment or anything else at this point. Abigail earned a master of arts in international relations from Johns Hopkins SAIS, concentrating in strategic studies and international economics, and a bachelor of arts, majoring in geology, anthropology, and archaeology, from Washington and Lee University. Mainly because I do belive the new generation of officers are a bunch of participation trophy recieving, never held accountable, privileged, idiots who can't handle that all that academy training and degree mean jack shit but to stroke their since of superiority over others. For some reason a lot of angry major S3 types fall into this category. In the military, XO refers to a second-in-command officer, or more generally, an executive officer.The XO typically reports to the commanding officer, who also goes by the names the first lieutenant and the number one. Thanks for your disgustingly pointless article. THAT is the reason why the Army is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on you to be educated there. The invested money for the cadet wasted. ROTC cadets do too. Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights White Pinstripe Full Button Replica Baseball Jersey $110.00 Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights 2022 Rivalry Collection #1 Green Untouchable Game Football Jersey $78.97 $105.00 * Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART Somewhat surprised by this, and thinking back to my own experiences in CTLT, I asked why he felt that way. His research interests include irregular warfare, surrogate warfare, and insurgency. Anyway. They are legally considered E-5 equivalent, and aren't Branch qualified. Getting a college degree in a military environment allows the cadets to graduate as Army Officers who meet the highest mental, physical, and military standards. Other than those few, I feel as though the future is bright. Ask any SJA. Has the. The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. I had another LT in one of the other shops stop me almost with tears in his eyes that I had just salutes 2 other 1LTs on the way into the building and while laughing explained me to that LTs did not salute each other. They aren't " in the pipeline" yet regarding training , experience or anything else yet. I just wished the device had been turned on when he was messing with the ground strap. Scott Faithis a veteran of a half-dozen combat deployments and has served in several different Special Operations units over the course of his Army career. They dont commission until CW2 but I guess they dont really count as Officers either. A honorific form of address indicating respect but only for officers under the rank of knight. The one group that actually gave us respect and tried to help and mentor us were the senior NCOs. A little background: I received my commission as a 2LT in May 1987 after spending two years in the SMP where I was enrolled as a senior ROTC Cadet (MSIII and MSIV) while serving simultaneously in a National Guard Unit. This rank business is a technicality of the rank system. But sometimes its good to keep the 300m target in mind as it is what might motivate you to get past the obstacle of the 5m target. The official General page for the Army West Point Black Knights. Be sure you join us as Colonel SHERMAN L. FLEEK will talk about fellow New Yorker, graduate of West Point Class of 1860, one of the boy wonders of the North, and future Superintendent of the Point--"WESLEY MERRITT." I don't mean to take anything away from the Point but my first platoon leader was the finest officer I ever served under. I have to admit that when he asked what I needed I probably got a little pleasure by responding: a cup of coffee. And yes the officer corps views your spouse as just a "wife.". they will give you what ever other training they need you to do. To this day I credit a lot of the success I had when I went on active duty after I graduated to this great NCO. When you focus on things that scare you to death, always remember that those are your fears and we're not concerned with achieving the next rank or a nice review. From the junior officer perspective we were seen as coffee and errand boys. Sam is currently a Master of Arts student at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) in preparation for a teaching . He is passionate about the policymaking process, civil-military relations, and great power competition in the polar regions. Army-Navy Uniforms 2022: 1st Armored Division 2021: Special Forces Command 2020: 25th Infantry Division 2019: 1st Cavalry Division 2018: 1st Infantry Division 2017: 10th Mountain Division 2016: 82nd Airborne Division Go Army! He has deployed to Eastern Europe, Southwest Asia, and Central America and was formerly an assistant professor at the American University of Afghanistan. Yes I have seen a misguided ROTC cadet DEMAND a salute from an E-9 once. This essay is an unofficial expression of opinion; the views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of West Point, the Department of the Army, U.S. which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. CTLT happens in all kinds of units, both in the US and OCONUS. The wear of civilian clothes and non-standard uniforms by soldiers was not a new development in 2002. One of these ignorant academy types was my battalion XO at Fort Ord. Actually, cadets do fill positions in the National Guard in the Simultaneous Membership Program and can be assigned to an O-2 slot for a period of years. United States Military Academy at West Point 1983 1987 Experience AngioDynamics October 2013 - Present American Medical Systems October 2010 - September 2013 American Medical Systems January 2007 - September 2010 American Medical Systems December 2003 - December 2006 American Medical Systems June 2002 - December 2003 Classes and field activities at West Point hold Cadets to the highest standards. I pray that you are only a LT yourself. I wondered about it at the time and this reminded me of it, is this more of like a courtesy thing where Warrants dont salute each other and shake hands instead? More than likely you are just privileged. 133. But short of that, cadets can end up in just about anywhere. I say this as a retired officer. The key to success in your career is understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your key players AKA your subordinate leaders and junior Soldiers. Here's my advise that will serve you well; always remember this; ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS! Cadets were sons of the upper class and were, due to social norms, afforded gentlemans status. And you'll have to deal with the reality that there are better men out there and you may be in over your head but don't blame others for your shortcomings. Great investment. It is used to predict a candidate's aptitude for the physical program at the service academies. United States Military Academy, byname West Point Academy, institution of higher education for the training of commissioned officers for the United States Army. Good answer. Medical students do not do anything on their own authority, and it would be illegal as they are unlicensed. Its not so much AR, but UCMJ. Of course, there is another reason to treat West Point and ROTC cadets with respect: they are not going to be cadets forever. Whoever came up with this interpretation needs to review deeper. And get to know your PBO very well! The cadet would still have to be "Regularly Assigned". aviator, Special Forces Officer, and historian in several command and staff positions. Outside of authorized developmental training events such as CTLT, no NCO is going to allow a cadet to swoop in and take charge of his platoon, squad, or section. I going to join special forces, hopefully Delta, and I was wondering if West Point can put you on that path immediately after graduation. I did 24 years in the ARMY and have been led by West Pointers! That one NCO who doesn't give a crap about you is the one you should be talking to. I was an enlisted man and my rank at the time of my discharge in the late Summer of 1989 was Sergeant E5. You are not a leader because you graduated from an academy. Within the cadet corps there was a rank structure and cadets saluted other cadets with rank above theirs. Youre right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you. I would argue that the NCO/CO rivalries have started as a result of more modern times as compared to past wars and generations and honestly it should stop. It's virtually guaranteed there are at least one or two SNCO in a given company qualified to take a short term command of the company. Henry Thompson is a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, where he majors in American politics and minors in grand strategy. Cadets saluted officers of all United States uniformed services. Hooah!!! Everybody read it. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet. On June 11th, an angry and mournful. His operational experience includes deployments to Somalia, Nigeria, and Afghanistan. Your comment reeks of arrogance. Tom Katsenes is currently a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, majoring in American politics. However, I don't see the wisdom of placing a SNCO in command of a company ahead of a cadet. I bet they could not even remember my name. When I contracted under the SMP I was administratively promoted to the rank and pay grade of E-5 ( I had served two years previously in the Army Reserve as a junior enlisted 11B). I was floored. Sometimes cadets are relegated to less-meaningful duties, or endure some modicum of hazing as part of the experience. Nobody reads your comments past the first four lines. Both preflight and flight school were run under the traditional cadet model of upperclass and lowerclass where upperclassmen were responsible for much of the military training and discipline of the lowerclassmen. So our government invested thousands on a lying, dishonest, ill-informed, and immature man child to lead others. Technically, they aren't even qualified to fulfill a team leader slot. ). I respect them all but I just wonder what makes them "Elite" as you say? Then, when you are a senior 1st Lt apply for the part of the Special Operations community you want (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta etc). Its part of the academys mission to educate, train, inspire, and instill the values of duty, honor, and country. The Evidence: The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. Some people hate lying motionless for hours upon days. Milley Speaks at West Point GraduationWEST POINT, NY, UNITED STATES05.21.2022Defense Flash News - May 2022https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgt2lndbOCnZHPMh. Will that is incorrect. Incorrect. It's ideal to apply during the spring of your junior year in high school. WEST POINT, N.Y. (Oct. 25, 2012) -- It's not a summer vacation most people would fight for but for future Army officers, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. Normal members of the medical team fall within a strict hierarchy (just like rank). I am a cadet and am military police and drill with them as well. It broke my heart when I found out that officers can not be snipers. Im a Senior WO and I can personally attest to the height of arrogance the NCO Corps exercises today. Officers, commissioned warrant officers, midshipmen, cadets, candidates are all affordedofficer status. Interesting because WO1s are appointed by SecDef on behalf of the CinC. West Point Admissions Requirements and Deadlines. USMA at West Point creates the leaders of tomorrow through world-class leadership skills training; physical, ethical, and moral development, and top-tier science, engineering, and math education. No one does this better than The Corps. Tell the NCO's that you don't want to seem like a dick that you're being so picky on things, you're just building trust so later you know who's good to go and what each of our strengths are and that goes for the young LT as well (that's called humility and the men will understand because it's fair). First, what an insult to a SNCO that instead of a 1SG with 10 plus years of experience leading soldiers in the absence of officers A Cadet would be next in succession. Forces Korea, the Department of Defense, or any agency of the U.S. government. Each job is as important as the rest. ok Cadet, go right ahead. Abigail is a former Center for a New American Security Shawn Brimley Next Generation National Security Leaders fellow and a former Young Professionals in Foreign Policy fellow, and serves on the board of directors for HillVets Foundation. By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. Cadets and NCOs do not salute one another. -If you are a Soldier and you are still carrying around the trash attitude of the "good ole' days", it is most likely time for you to go. As an humorous aside, earlier I mentioned that the junior officers in my reserve unit treated cadets as little more than errand boys. Enough of my rant! Gold - Gold as in the Class Rings received cadet's senior year, or like the plentiful Brass found on the cadet uniform and the rank/insignia patches worn by upperclassmen designating their cadet rank and position.
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